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How to answer the OR/M Challenge?
Rob Conery's OR/M challenge leaves me with a problem. No, it is not that I can't do that, it is that I am not sure how to answer it. The situation is complex because I want to show the entire application, otherwise we are just doing simple data access, and that has very little meaning on its own. The concept that I have in my head is an MVC application, with most of the focus on the controllers and the data access.
The idea is to produce a Hibernating Rhinos screen cast showing how to solve it (actually, it would be two at least, since that is a big issue, I want to cover building the model first, and then, in a second episode, performance tricks).
The problem is choosing how to do, because MVC means UI, and I don't want to show the UI, people will focus on that instead of on the real issues. I thought about:
- Doing it on the console, but that necessitate an MVC for the console. This probably means another episode, talking just about that. It is an interesting topic, because it is about using MVC in the abstract. The good thing here is that showing the SQL that certain actions causes is really easy, we just log it to the console. And of course, no UI to try to focus on.
- Using MonoRail - that would make my life easier, but I am afraid it would increase the barrier to understanding. On the other hand, it would be a fairly advance MonoRail screen cast, so there is good here also.
- Using WinForms - still, would need to build an MVC on top of WinForms, and I don't really feel like doing that.
- Using WebForms - you can't do MVC in Web Forms, and I don't feel like fighting it to get things done. However, I do have an existing framework (Rhino Igloo) to make it less painful, and it would be a good chance to show that out as well.
Your call, use the poll on the left (you may need to visit the web site for this if you are reading on RSS) or leave a comment.
Comments
WebForms please. Don't introduce too many new concepts at once.
This is the chance to unleash Igloo heheh..
What about using CAB? :D
I'm pretty sure I put the bug in Rob's ear about this. I think you guys have both held an intelligent, enlightening discussion, and I told him I'd love to see how you both solved the same problem in a screencast (since he's done great SubSonic screencasts on his blog and you've done great screencasts for DNRTV).
My vote would be for WebForms so we've got a more straightforward comparison of data access technologies. I'm kind of torn on this because I'd love to see how you'd approach the entire problem, but I think your data access approach might be less clear if you use a completely different stack.
Would be great to see in Hibernating Rhinos episode a full application (some small one) using NHib with Rhino Commons and Igloo... That would be one I would show and re-show to my dev team :)
Wow... that would be great :)
I thought I would write a full reply for a change :)
http://aspadvice.com/blogs/insane_world/archive/2007/06/13/Should-Ayende-Rise-To-Rob_2700_s-Challenge_3F00_.aspx
Is there any info on rhino igloo right now? I tried to google for it, but found only source code.
Only source code
I'd prefer to see it in Monorail. I see enough crappy WebForm stuff at work!
There is already for MonoRail.... check out the previous Rhinos episodes...
For Igloo as mentioned... there is only source code.
I'd like to see Monorail. I already know WebForms enough, so lets so the entire OSS stack that is frequently used. It'll make a great example.
Paul and Dave... Did you take a look at previous Hibernating Rhinos episodes?
In one of them (second I think) Oren already shows the MonoRail.
Ayende, could you describe in a short paragraph what igloo is about? And what state the project is in - I gather you are not too fond of WebForms anyway...
Thanks!
Yeap, I agree with Vladan. Ayende had demonstrated Monorail on episode 2. How about web form for this one?
To be fair, that was an episode that was mostly about comparing MonoRail to webforms
where can i find that episode?
Hmm... Look on this site?
http://www.ayende.com/hibernating-rhinos.aspx
I see the arguments for webforms as a way to more directly compare the data access techniques, but I agree with Paul Wilson that this is a great opportunity to show how you'd approach the whole problem with your usual toolbox.
Vladan, if you think the description "hibernating rhinos" should have tipped me off, you have obviously more phantasy than I do. Thanks anyway!
Monorail....
Don't focus on the UI but rather the Domain and Service layer. It would be a nice contribution to the monorail project without having to dive into great detail.
A strong domain and service layer and almost any UI, maybe not webforms, would be fairly easy to plug in.
WPF :-)
Hammett,
Good suggestion, but I don't actually have any experience there, so that would be a fairly bad screen cast. :-D
Why do you think I suggested it? I have this "Apps = Code + markup" sitting on my table, staring at me. I could use a faster, more painless introduction :-)
Yeah, call me lazy. I know... :-p
I have Adam's book here, I am on chapter 3 for the last three months or so :-)
Actually, my idea for WPF app is an NHibernate profiler.
Stefan,
I just had to say that :) :)
Well, anyway... glad if it helped.
webforms to: 1) help focus on one thing at a time 2) keep the comparison going, as Rob will most likely use webforms
But of course future webcasts on helping break free of webforms are welcome!
A MonoRail example would be great. Your existing MR screencast is very nice, but it would be even better to see an advanced usage. We get even more juicy info on alternative technologies this way, too, instead of more W__forms stuff :-).
you could try just use nUnit or whatever to drive the code without any UI.
Yup I'd like to see an Igloo UI.
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