It will do what you want in version 4.0...
But still start using it now. Another reply to Adi, this time a new post in which he clarifies what he meant before. The main idea is that Microsoft's products get a big mindshare regardless of their relative qualities. I do not doubt that this is true, a lot of people goes for Microsoft because it is Microsoft. Expecting that this will pay off in the future is still the wrong thing to do.
I am one of those that would move to a new technology just because it gives me a tiny bit more, if it preserves everything that I can do in my current technologies. I am now using MsBuild in favor of Nant, because I can get the build script and the VS project to match (and yes, I know I can call msbuild from Nant). I moved to NUnit from MbUnit and back again, for much the same reasons.
But if it doesn't improve, why bother? Adi brings up a couple of examples:
I will refuse to use MS Test until:
- It has a performance on par with NUnit/MbUnit - currently aroudn 30% slower, clock time.
- It support the very basic of test patterns, Abstract Test Class.
- It can be run as part of the build without jumping through hops.
There are people that would use MS Test instead of using NUnit, I am sure, although you don't here about it almost at all. They make compromises because they are using Microsoft, compromises that I am not willing to make.
Linq is an extention to the language, not a technology. Assuming that Adi is talking about one of the ORM technologies from Microsoft, I do not think that I can argue that this is the case, only that I do not think that this is something that is done with planning and foresight. Just to point out, no one answered to my Linq challange yet, and I have no idea if this is even possible.
I started doing C# when I was mostly building Windows applications. The only good story at the time was VB or C++. If you wanted to use Java you could, if you really liked laying stuff out in code, and then running it to see what you wanted. Java was never very strong on the client. C# came to replace a market that was dying for a replacement, which is why it caught such a big audiance in such a short time. If Sun had its act together in 95-00, it could have made Java the prevasive technology everywhere.
I would really love to compete on a technology level with someone that is buying completely into this approach. I can do better than most of the market by using the best tools for the job. Limiting myself to Microsoft tools is limiting myself to the level that Microsoft believes most programmers should be.
I once had to resort to runtime code generation in order to sort a grid view. It is complex, yes, but it meant that I had sorting working for all the grids in the application, for the cost of half a day, while the upstream team wrote custom code per grid per page, because that is how they were told it should work.
Going with MS related technology blindly is not a good thing at all. It is not a strategy, it is herd thinking. It is the old argument about: "No one was fired for choosing Microsoft".
Comments
I might fire someone for choosing Visual Source Safe.
Oren, I couldn't agree with you more . The Microsoft Fanboy-ism that some developers exude is appalling.
I am a former Java dev (now exclusively .NET) and while I admit Microsoft has done a lot of things right with .NET that Sun never figured out with Java. I get extremely irritated by the MS fanboys who claim that Java was a colossal failure and it took Microsoft to do managed code properly. If Java hadn't been successful you can bet there never would have been a C#.
The VSTS Test versus NUnit argument is just another example of people assuming that MS has improved on NUnit with VSTS when in reality they have only barely started competing with it.
True developers should never become religious fanatics with regards to vendors/tools/platforms. A true developer can figure what works best for their current situation without regard to who built the tools that work well.
Going with MS, or OSS, or Java, or whatever without evaluation whether it is in fact the best tool for the job is dumb. Nonetheless, in spite of how much we care, and how much we disagree with MS strategy to dominate every single market, even the fine grained, even with a worst technology, is not likely to change
So dude, give up. The "enlighted" ones will seek for alternatives and stick with the best tool. The vast majority will adapt anything, even the ultimate Microsoft Suicide Foundation 1.0, if that ever hit the market.
Don't get me wrong, I think there are many technologies out there better than MS, but every time you use a new technology you make a gamble. MS is a safe bet, but the gain is smaller. Open source is a bigger risk, while the reward may be much better. It's all a matter of choices.
So people may use MS technologies blindly just because of their source, or because the old argument about "No one was fired for choosing Microsoft", and it still doesn't make them religious fanatics.
I just don't like the "Us enlighted open source dudes smart, Microsoft developers stupid" approach. And Karthik, if someone decides on using the VSTS built-in test system it does mean he is not a "true developer".....
Whoops, "does NOT mean".
@Hammet,
ROTFL.
If MSF will ever hit the market, we will certainly see a huge rise in the adoption of better tools.
OTOH, maybe it is good that MSF is not a good product.
Oren
What you wrote about the team dealing with the grid view has nothing to do with the discussion, it's just bad programming (writing the same code over and over again).
And as a software company with no shelf product, if a customer insists on using MS technologies and you call him "stupid", you'll lose that bussines, how is that doing better than others?
@Adi,
"Us enlighted open source dudes smart, Microsoft developers stupid"
I don't think that I ever said that.
I disagree with a lot of the stuff that Microsoft is doing, that is different than calling them stupid.
No, it doesn't. It just mean that he is missing a lot of stuff that are basic to unit testing, which may limit what he can do.
And here is here I don't agree.
Okay, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I'm not the only one:
http://dotnet.kapenilattex.com/?p=26
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